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Unread postPosted: November 2nd, 2011, 10:32 pm 
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one more thing to add to my prev post - i am not completely decided against legalization, but i am pretty positive we should decriminalize as a first step, then take it from there.

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Unread postPosted: November 3rd, 2011, 1:34 am 
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emily cummings wrote:
one more thing to add to my prev post - i am not completely decided against legalization, but i am pretty positive we should decriminalize as a first step, then take it from there.


This is what the Canadian Senate had to say about "decrim":

“Some say that decriminalization is a step in the right direction, one that gives society time to become accustomed to cannabis, to convince opponents that chaos will not result, to adopt effective preventive measures. We believe however that this approach is in fact the worst case scenario, depriving the State of a necessary regulatory tool for dealing with the entire production, distribution, and consumption network, and delivering hypocritical messages at the same time. In our opinion, the data we have collected on cannabis and its derivatives provide sufficient grounds for our general conclusion that the regulation of the production, distribution and consumption of cannabis, inasmuch as it is part of an integrated and adaptable public policy, is best able to respond to the principles of autonomy, governance that fosters human responsibility and limitation of penal law to situations where there is demonstrable harm to others.” (54)

This is what Hunter S. Thompson had to say about decrim:

"Several people, spearheaded by Hunter Thompson, attacked the current strategy of decriminalized pot as "another trick."
– High Times, March 1977

http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/conte ... crim-facts



This is what the Canadian Cannabis Coalition had to say about decrim:

Bill C10 is contrary to the desire of Canadians to see the end to the prohibition of marijuana, says the Canadian Cannabis Coalition (CCC) ­ an umbrella organization representing medical, commercial and personal aspects of cannabis, dedicated to facilitating access to a safe supply of cannabis through research, education and advocacy. Instead of alleviating the harms of prohibition, this Bill would cause a "netwidening effect", ultimately punishing an increased number of Canadians. It would also lead to an entrenched illegal market.

The Senate Special Committee on Illegal Drugs warned that despite the fact that some may say that decriminalization is a step in the right direction, "this approach is in fact the worst-case scenario, depriving the State of a regulatory tool needed in dealing with the entire production, distribution, and consumption network, and delivering a rather hypocritical message at the same time." The report also states "decriminalization of use is a weak variation of prohibition, in the long run entailing more disadvantages than advantages."

Bill C10, currently on its third reading in parliament, would allow the provinces that are signatories to the Contraventions Act to implement fines for small amounts of cannabis possession ($150-$400 for under 15 grams of cannabis or 1 gram of resin) and cultivation ($500 for 3 plants or less). The CCC is concerned that the flat fine scale discriminates against low-income Canadians, including those using cannabis medically but illegally due to the government's unworkable medical marijuana regulations. In the event that the Bill is enacted into law, the CCC believes many Canadians will register their disapproval by fighting fines.

In provinces that are not signatories, including British Columbia, Alberta, and Saskatchewan, these offences would remain punishable under the Criminal Code through fines and summary convictions. Under both schemes, the possibility of imprisonment and a record remain intact. MP Libby Davies' proposal for a special provision that would guarantee no imprisonment on default of fines was not accepted. The Bill also provides foreign governments access to these records by court order. While this Bill would be an improvement for some Canadians who would otherwise face a criminal record and imprisonment under the current scheme, possession and cultivation of small amounts of cannabis most often results in confiscation only. As a result, this Bill would pull many more Canadians into contact the justice system since police officers may become more vigilant in enforcing the law due to the perceived ease of ticketing compared to arrest.

Bill C10's proposal to double the punishment to 14 years maximum for cultivators of over 50 plants would make the penalty higher than that for rape or manslaughter and risks filling Canadian jails with non-violent drug offenders. The increased risk and cost associated with production would increase black market profits, violence and corruption.

Debate in the House of Commons over Bill C10 demonstrates inexcusable misinformation on the part of many Liberal and Alliance MP's. Mandatory minimums and forced treatment for repeat offenses are part and parcel of their Reefer Madness vision of a new cannabis drug strategy. Former Justice Minister, Martin Cauchon, sought US input into the Bill before it had even been read in Canadian Parliament. If the Bill passes its third reading it will go to the Senate for a sober second look. In such a case, the CCC urges the Senate to amend Bill C10 to reflect the unanimous conclusions of its Special Committee to fully legalize and regulate cannabis. Whether the Bill passes or not before the upcoming federal election, the CCC believes Canada's 3 to 5 million cannabis consumers will support political parties and candidates that are more tolerant of their choices and respectful of their rights.

http://cannabiscoalition.ca/html/index. ... page&pid=8

I would love to see you actually address arguments rather than just parrot your poorly researched irrational opinion without justification over and over again.


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Unread postPosted: November 3rd, 2011, 1:42 am 
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skipatrol wrote:
druggedfish wrote:
But drug demands are one of the core issues and as millions end up in jail when they don't hurt anyone. How can this not be important?


It is. Having said that. I will personally block drug demands from ending up on the 'list of demands'. Why? It's to divisive an issue... as this thread clearly shows. I do not want to alienate a large chunk of the 99% because legalization advocates keep saying "They just don't understand what's good for them"

Mathew



Maybe you will alienate a larger chunk of the 99% with your prohibitionist-supporting attitude than you would by supporting drug peace:

Should the use of marijuana be legalized in Canada?
Yes
84% (123 votes)

https://www.onlineparty.ca/issue.php?ISSUEID=23

The U.S.'s top propagandist on the subject, Drug Czar Gil Kerlikowske, penned an official response to eight petitions calling for changes to marijuana laws, including the top petition that had 74,169 signatures.
http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/conte ... -Petitions

This has been the "top question" for the entire Obama administration:

The query, which received more than three million votes, was: "With over 1 out of 30 Americans controlled by the penal system, why not legalize, control, and tax marijuana to change the failed war on drugs into a money making, money saving boost to the economy? Do we really need that many victimless criminals?"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/2 ... 79563.html


* Based on the last census, there are approximately 20 million Canadians between the ages of 18 and 64. There are approximately 2 million Canadians over age 18 who have used cannabis during the preceding 12 months.[3] Other statistics show a 25% lifetime prevalence.[4]
http://www.cannabisfacts.ca/FederalMari ... Primer.htm


Majority of Canadians Would Legalize Marijuana
Apr 15, 2010 - Angus Reid Strategies - Global Monitor

2008: 53% ("legalization") Angus Reid
2007: 51% ("legalization") Angus Reid
2007: 55% ("legalization") Angus Reid
2004: 53% ("regulating and taxing")
2000: 47% ("legalization") source
1975: 26% ("legalization") source

http://frankdiscussion.netfirms.com/inf ... stics.html



I hope you prohibitionists all walk away from the movement - we're building a sustainable world, and it has no room for genocide, bigotry and prohibition.


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Unread postPosted: November 3rd, 2011, 1:47 am 
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Oscar wrote:
If, in the utopia you seek, all drugs are made legal, what do you suppose the thugs and gangsters who are selling them will do with themselves? Get jobs at the 7-11? I doubt it.


They'll have nice jobs growing pot or selling pot in cafes like they do in Holland. You ever see a poor Dutch pot grower or dealer? Me neither.

Here are some photos of some cool pot cafes. Looks like an awesome job to me:

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe= ... 31&bih=901


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Unread postPosted: November 3rd, 2011, 1:51 am 
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Oscar wrote:
That would not happen. What would happen is that the illegal drug trade would still exist, made all the cheaper because all the business is "off the books". Legal drug pushers have to recover the tax you covet, illegals don't. Too many people see tax as some kind of free money, created out of thin air. Taxes are a cost of doing business, as are all the regulatory costs you see as quite affordable. Absent subsidies from the taxpayer, the "legal" system will have to compete with a low cost, illegal alternative.

Even you say "might" end the traffic. Might?

It is not about economic interests as you suspect. Some people actually believe the drugs are a bad idea and given the 40 year long social train wreck they have caused, perhaps they have something there. Even in Holland, people are getting a little sick of the "benefits" of the hands off approach. Having been a teenager in the 60's, I always thought we would rue the day people got into all of the drugs that were so harmless-and where we are now is after 40 years of personal disasters, which some people delude themselves into believing would not happen if was all made legal. And, anything that is still illegal will still be a problem.

Also, does it not occur to some people, who worry about "economic interests" that many of the legalize pot crowd have their own economic interests they are promoting?


You're the voice of ignorance. Here's some videos of an ex judge and ex police chief promoting legal pot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 6t1EM4Onao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZK_2Bar ... r_embedded

If you're not afraid to learn something, watch these videos.


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Unread postPosted: November 3rd, 2011, 1:55 am 
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I am not a prohibitionist. If it were legalized, it would not upset me, but it is not an issue in my life that I spend time thinking about. I don't smoke pot, but I am not bothered that others do if it does them no harm. I just don't see legalization as THE #1 issue causing all the problems in the world, and at some point the movement will have to come up with some tangiable demands/ solutions that can hold the support of the 99%. There may be plenty of marijauna advocates out there, but that doesn't mean that marijauna is their priority concern either. this movement is about the disparity between the rich and poor, the widening gap...the majority of the world's wealth in the hands of relatively few, and looking at the root causes of that disparity. I don't think marijauna criminalization is the root cause of income disparity. It may well be a symptom of it...but the income disparity/ corporate greed is the main issue to be worked out first. Are you willing to consider that you might be a little too hyper focused on this one issue yourself, David, because it is the issue most important to you?


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Unread postPosted: November 3rd, 2011, 2:03 am 
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emily cummings wrote:
Quote:
Also, does it not occur to some people, who worry about "economic interests" that many of the legalize pot crowd have their own economic interests they are promoting?


it does.

having said that, i sincerely hope this issue is set aside for now. no harm done until the full list of demands/solutions is agreed on.


So what do you do for a living, Emily? It appears that - from reading your tweets - all you do all day is tweet and comment. What economic interests do you have? And why are yours legit but someone who wants to sell a non-toxic, healing flower's interests are not legit?

I'm an art dealer and museum curator. Here is my website: www.herbmuseum.ca

At least I take time off during the day to work. How can you afford to attack people like me all day long? What are your economic interests?


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Unread postPosted: November 3rd, 2011, 2:11 am 
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Ksuzie wrote:
I am not a prohibitionist. If it were legalized, it would not upset me, but it is not an issue in my life that I spend time thinking about. I don't smoke pot, but I am not bothered that others do if it does them no harm. I just don't see legalization as THE #1 issue causing all the problems in the world, and at some point the movement will have to come up with some tangiable demands/ solutions that can hold the support of the 99%. There may be plenty of marijauna advocates out there, but that doesn't mean that marijauna is their priority concern either. this movement is about the disparity between the rich and poor, the widening gap...the majority of the world's wealth in the hands of relatively few, and looking at the root causes of that disparity. I don't think marijauna criminalization is the root cause of income disparity. It may well be a symptom of it...but the income disparity/ corporate greed is the main issue to be worked out first. Are you willing to consider that you might be a little too hyper focused on this one issue yourself, David, because it is the issue most important to you?


How is the human race going to survive without a plant that can replace oil? Cannabis is the best fuel crop on planet earth. If climate change, oil wars and oil spills are important then getting the red tape removed from growing industrial hemp is important.

As well, wasn't there something we were all supposed to learn from WW2? I believe it was "never again" - not just "never again to the Jewish people", but rather "never again to anyone".

As for poverty - what would be the effect on poverty of turning over the energy and drug economies (hundreds of billions of dollars per year) to millions of farmers and gardeners instead of a handful of corporate executives?

I'm not willing to compromise on allowing the earth to become one big oil spill, or one big oil war, or continued climate change, or one big prison. These issues affect us all, regardless of what kinds of medicines or drugs we consume.

Here is the statement of unity:

We, the Ninety-Nine Percent, come together with our diverse experiences to transform the unequal, unfair, and growing disparity in the distribution of power and wealth in our city and around the globe. We challenge corporate greed, corruption, and the collusion between corporate power and government. We oppose systemic inequality, militarization, environmental destruction, and the erosion of civil liberties and human rights. We seek economic security, genuine equality, and the protection of the environment for all.

What part of that doesn't apply to the 10% of Canadians who use pot regularly? If we're the 99%, then we don't turn our backs on the 10% of us that Harper wants to throw in prison. Never again.


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Unread postPosted: November 3rd, 2011, 6:19 am 
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We're NOT. For fuck sake!!!!! We're embracing the 10% without giving Harper ammo to use against us. It's called strategy, long term tactics.... Rather than being a one trick pony.

Read the thread again, and stop NEEDING to be right.

If we are including the 99%, then YOU must accept that you will not get a super-majority on this demand... It's OBVIOUS from this thread.


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Unread postPosted: November 3rd, 2011, 6:49 am 
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skipatrol wrote:
We're NOT. For fuck sake!!!!! We're embracing the 10% without giving Harper ammo to use against us. It's called strategy, long term tactics.... Rather than being a one trick pony.

Read the thread again, and stop NEEDING to be right.

If we are including the 99%, then YOU must accept that you will not get a super-majority on this demand... It's OBVIOUS from this thread.

this.

we are literally screwed if we keep on pushing our individual interests ahead of interests of everybody else.

reading this thread brings me back to believing that all david wants from OVan is to legalize pot, and he doesn't seem to realize that if at least one of our demands gets to see the light of realization in our lifetime, his drug demands may immediately come back to table.

i am again freaked our by the way he is utterly insensitive to anything others have to say.

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