Picked up some new ammo today...

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Mel Gibson
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Picked up some new ammo today...

Post: # 180508Unread post Mel Gibson
Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:11 am

It's nice to be able to finally get some selection in this country, which until not too long ago was pretty crappy... Unless it was a popular Remington or Federal box of bullets, good luck finding much else!

Picked up some hardcast ammo for my handguns. Why? Just because I now can! Bought some Buffalo Bore +P hardcasts for the 9mm pistol, and some HSM bearloads for the .357.

The HSM bearloads don't seem to be loaded to 100% max pressures, but I think that's to eliminate any chance of crimp jump if people should desire to fire them out of a light weight alloy revolver (why people would want to fire full-house .357 rounds out of an alloy revolver is beyond me)...

The 9mm +P hardcasts are kind of interesting... The owner of Buffalo Bore actually defends their use in self defense scenarios, himself loading only one or two hollowpoints at top of mag, followed with the rest of the mag full of hardcasts, for that penetration.

Will be interesting to see how these perform at the range, whenever I get a chance!




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Blue Frost
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Post: # 180509Unread post Blue Frost
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:45 pm

I shot some full loads from a featherlite 357 revolver my friend had, it was quite painful, i wont be firing one again full load, or not.
In 9mm, hollow points for protection is a must in my opinion, or a good self defense load. Ball ammo is alright, but I fine it hard to trust it taking a person down unless you are a marksman hitting the right place every time.

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Post: # 180514Unread post Renee
Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:44 pm

Blue Frost wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:45 pm
I shot some full loads from a featherlite 357 revolver my friend had, it was quite painful, i wont be firing one again full load, or not.
In 9mm, hollow points for protection is a must in my opinion, or a good self defense load. Ball ammo is alright, but I fine it hard to trust it taking a person down unless you are a marksman hitting the right place every time.
Shot placement is everything...There is no such thing as stopping power with a handgun. You have to put every round center mass no matter what caliber you are using to be effective.

For decades the 158gr SWC in 357 mag/.38 spl and the 230gr .45 ACP FMJ were the rounds that all combat handgun loads where judged by. It was only after our law enforcement changed over to hi-cap semi-autos in the whimpy 9mm that everyone jumped on the hollow point bandwagon....Why?... Partly because the 9mm is a shit stopper but mostly because the hi-cap mags promote a spray and spray mentality that is no match for proper shot placement.

Also much of the hype around hollowpoints is fueled by firearms media generated fear of being "outgunned" by bad guys. Which in 95% of all armed encounters is pure bullshit.
“A man’s rights rest in three boxes. The ballot-box, the jury-box, and the cartridge-box.”....Frederick Douglas

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Post: # 180515Unread post Mel Gibson
Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:19 pm

I know you hate the 9mm Renee, but if we want to talk about what worked so well in the 'olden days', I'm not so sure the 'olden days' ammo is quite as good as a modern 9mm defense round.

Pictured below is a standard RCMP issue round that I have, from when we still used .38 revolvers. It's a Federal .38 +P Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point, also known as the 'FBI Round'.

This was a common round in the US also, for law enforcement. I challenge you to show me any ballistics tests that show this old .38 round to be superior to a modern 9mm defense round! (For what it's worth, RCMP never did issue .357 Mag revolvers, just .38 +P)

The 'Spray & Pray' method isn't the fault of a particular round nor a particular pistol... It's the guy (or gal) firing it, yo!

And just in case you missed it, this .38 'FBI Round' is actually a hollow point...






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Post: # 180516Unread post Mel Gibson
Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:26 pm

Blue Frost wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:45 pm
I shot some full loads from a featherlite 357 revolver my friend had, it was quite painful, i wont be firing one again full load, or not.
I can understand the purpose of those little snubby airweight revolvers, but I think .38 +P rounds are really the most anyone would ever want to shoot out of them! :laugh:

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Post: # 180524Unread post Blue Frost
Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:14 pm

Renee wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:44 pm
Blue Frost wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:45 pm
I shot some full loads from a featherlite 357 revolver my friend had, it was quite painful, i wont be firing one again full load, or not.
In 9mm, hollow points for protection is a must in my opinion, or a good self defense load. Ball ammo is alright, but I fine it hard to trust it taking a person down unless you are a marksman hitting the right place every time.
Shot placement is everything...There is no such thing as stopping power with a handgun. You have to put every round center mass no matter what caliber you are using to be effective.

For decades the 158gr SWC in 357 mag/.38 spl and the 230gr .45 ACP FMJ were the rounds that all combat handgun loads where judged by. It was only after our law enforcement changed over to hi-cap semi-autos in the whimpy 9mm that everyone jumped on the hollow point bandwagon....Why?... Partly because the 9mm is a shit stopper but mostly because the hi-cap mags promote a spray and spray mentality that is no match for proper shot placement.

Also much of the hype around hollowpoints is fueled by firearms media generated fear of being "outgunned" by bad guys. Which in 95% of all armed encounters is pure bullshit.
Placement is everything, but only if you can place it.
Practice helps, but you need to do more than work with the gun, the mind is the big thing.
All the placement in the world is thrown out if fired back on, people panic, so you need to learn discipline, being calm, and thinking.
You can be took out with a .22 if the right person is shooting it.
Variables come in also body mass, bone mass, and even movement of the person during the shot.

What I was saying the last post is you are more likely to take down someone with a better cartridge like a 357, 45, or a similar round.
You will go through the fat, bone, and gristle in some peoples head. :teehe:
I like a slower round also more than a speed round, they put most the kinetic energy into the target, and it don't have to be hollow points.

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Post: # 180529Unread post Mel Gibson
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:29 pm

If you like penetration, you'll like the hard cast loads I pictured above! That 9mm +P hard cast round will actually penetrate the skull of a bear, provided you can place that shot!

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Post: # 180531Unread post Renee
Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:54 pm

Mel Gibson wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:19 pm
I know you hate the 9mm Renee, but if we want to talk about what worked so well in the 'olden days', I'm not so sure the 'olden days' ammo is quite as good as a modern 9mm defense round.

Pictured below is a standard RCMP issue round that I have, from when we still used .38 revolvers. It's a Federal .38 +P Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point, also known as the 'FBI Round'.

This was a common round in the US also, for law enforcement. I challenge you to show me any ballistics tests that show this old .38 round to be superior to a modern 9mm defense round! (For what it's worth, RCMP never did issue .357 Mag revolvers, just .38 +P)

The 'Spray & Pray' method isn't the fault of a particular round nor a particular pistol... It's the guy (or gal) firing it, yo!

And just in case you missed it, this .38 'FBI Round' is actually a hollow point...






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Bullshit... spray and pray is the result of poor training and a reliance on capacity....You didn't have "spray and pray" when law enforcement carried revolvers. Rarely did cop need to run their revolver dry. It's a known fact among police instructors, that in the past 25 years, a full 80% of rounds fired in real world gun fights miss center mass.

BTW, I know what the FBI load is....I also know what goes into it, do you?...4.2 grains of Bullseye, or 4.8 grs. of W231, or 5.2 grs. of Unique all approximate the performance of the so called FBI or Treasury Load. I've loaded literally thousands of them.

In case you didn't know, those are all types of gun powder from different manufacturers. So don't even think that you can lecture me on the performance of handgun rounds or what they are made of.... :laugh:

Now, back to my assertion;... there is no such thing as stopping power from a handgun...here is a link to a very good article with real word examples that bear out my assertion.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/the- ... ernometry/

Also in the unlikely event of a so called "one shot stop", tests were done by Federal for their "Hydro-shok" ammunition and the results were as follows:

9mm 124gr - 83%
.40 S&W 155gr - 94%
.45 ACP 230gr - 96%

As for 38 spl +p, Winchester claims a 79% one shot stop from their 158gr silver tips. It may be slightly less effective that the 9 but it has superior penetration to any 9mm "defensive" load on the market.

Now if you can believe this bullshit it shows that the "modern 9mm" is pretty much equal to or lagging behind any defensive round I would reach for first.
“A man’s rights rest in three boxes. The ballot-box, the jury-box, and the cartridge-box.”....Frederick Douglas

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Post: # 180532Unread post Blue Frost
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:00 pm

Mel Gibson wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:29 pm
If you like penetration, you'll like the hard cast loads I pictured above! That 9mm +P hard cast round will actually penetrate the skull of a bear, provided you can place that shot!
For bear yes, but a human all you need is a soft point, just a regular over the counter load in something like a 45, or 357.
A basic 9mm will kill, and penetrate, but for damage I go with a bigger round, or a +p.
You can load 9 properly, but stupid retard judicial system looks down on good rounds. Funny since I shoot someone i want them dead, not able to shoot me back.

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Post: # 180533Unread post Renee
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:02 pm

Mel Gibson wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:29 pm
If you like penetration, you'll like the hard cast loads I pictured above! That 9mm +P hard cast round will actually penetrate the skull of a bear, provided you can place that shot!
Really...says who....Buffalo bore?... :think:

Yeah, they also claim that their 190gr 30-30 load is big bear medicine. Personally I think they over sell the performance of every round they make.
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Post: # 180535Unread post Blue Frost
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:06 pm

LOl, I don't think I would even consider going bear hunting with a 9mm, especially those big ones.
You can take out I read 25% of the heart with a shot, and the bear will still kill you before he dies.

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Post: # 180536Unread post Mel Gibson
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:13 pm

Renee wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:54 pm
Bullshit... spray and pray is the result of poor training and a reliance on capacity....You didn't have "spray and pray" when law enforcement carried revolvers. Rarely did cop need to run their revolver dry. It's a known fact among police instructors, that in the past 25 years, a full 80% of rounds fired in real world gun fights miss center mass.
Not bullshit. You tried to blame spray & pray on the introduction of the 9mm pistol. I simply stated it's the user, not the gun.
Renee wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:54 pm
Also in the unlikely event of a so called "one shot stop", tests were done by Federal for their "Hydro-shok" ammunition and the results were as follows:

9mm 124gr - 83%
.40 S&W 155gr - 94%
.45 ACP 230gr - 96%

As for 38 spl +p, Winchester claims a 79% one shot stop from their 158gr silver tips. It may be slightly less effective that the 9 but it has superior penetration to any 9mm "defensive" load on the market.

Now if you can believe this bullshit it shows that the "modern 9mm" is pretty much equal to or lagging behind any defensive round I would reach for first.
So, at least we can agree that standard pressure 9mm round is superior to any .38 round, including .38 +P.

You want penetration? Look at my OP, you'll see a 9mm +P 147gr hard cast round that I purchased. Tell me that won't penetrate, if penetration is the desire.

There is nothing wrong with 9mm, provided you utilize the proper round for the job, especially in +P, since most modern pistols can handle +P anyhow.

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Post: # 180537Unread post Mel Gibson
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:18 pm

Renee wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:02 pm
Really...says who....Buffalo bore?... :think:
Blue Frost wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:06 pm
LOl, I don't think I would even consider going bear hunting with a 9mm, especially those big ones.
You can take out I read 25% of the heart with a shot, and the bear will still kill you before he dies.
You guys don't actually think I'd try this, do you? :laugh:

Even .357 Mag is iffy in bear country! .44 Mag would probably be my minimum caliber for bear defense, especially if in Grizz country!

You both know I have a .45-70 Marlin if I need a bear gun! :yum2:

I'm just curious how these rounds will perform at the range more than anything... I like trying out different ammo, just for fun.

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Post: # 180538Unread post Mel Gibson
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:49 pm

Where I think the 9mm would really shine, would be if one desires a subcompact pistol for ultimate concealability. While we can't do that here, if I lived in a CCW State I could definitely see the advantage of easy CCW with a small, lightweight pistol like the Glock 43 9mm:



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Post: # 180542Unread post Blue Frost
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:35 pm

Can't believe I'm considering it, but I was looking at a stainless Walther PPK to conceal carry.
380 will get someone off you pretty fast even if not a distance shooter. I would bet some Corbon ammo would sting the hand a bit.

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Post: # 180543Unread post Mel Gibson
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:39 pm

Blue Frost wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:35 pm
Can't believe I'm considering it, but I was looking at a stainless Walther PPK to conceal carry.
380 will get someone off you pretty fast even if not a distance shooter. I would bet some Corbon ammo would sting the hand a bit.
I like the PPK's also, and while probably not the best compact pistol for CC, if you like them I wouldn't hesitate to carry one if I could! It certainly is a classic design with some history, and I sure wouldn't want to get hit with a proper 9mm Kurz defense round!

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Post: # 180544Unread post Mel Gibson
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:59 pm

The compact Ruger LCP seems to be a very popular concealed carry pistol, so sales alone show that the .380 Auto is still a popular enough round for those that want to carry small & light...

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Post: # 180545Unread post Blue Frost
Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:14 pm

I have a few 9mm pistols, my 45s isn't much bigger really.
Being my hands are more like paws I rather a bigger grip, but for concealed the PPk is streamline more than the newer subcompacts.
Also I don't really want another polymer pistol, they are alright, but I about had my fill of them.

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Post: # 180546Unread post Mel Gibson
Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:34 pm

No doubt a historic pistol! From Hitler's own suicide pistol (his was a .32 ACP), to always being associated with James Bond, I think the PPK (just like the 1911) has withstood the test of time!

Also read that the Kentucky State Police issued them as backup pistols...

Buffalo Bore offers quite a few different styles of .380 +P ammo, if you demand some extra velocity. They test it in PPK's also...

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Post: # 180547Unread post Mel Gibson
Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:42 pm

Just bear in mind that Renee will come rompin' & stompin' in anytime, telling you what a terrible choice you're making, since anything less than full-house .357 Mag rounds are simply pure garbage! :laugh:

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