..Guns Guns & More Guns

[Mel Gibson]

i love my 9mm Mel, but it's not as effective at taking people down as a .45.

It is when you need a pistol magazine that holds more than seven rounds!

[Renee]

The Niggra 9? Is this the preferred weapon of the inner city youth gang banger?

It's the preferred calibre for the masses who value a cartridge that's just as effective as the .45, while being attractively priced, and that permits higher magazine capacities.

Only people like Renee would have you believe any different. She's living in the past... Like 100 years in the past!

Mel what you know about hangun effectiveness can be put in a thimble. What you don't know needs to be carried in a railroad container car...

Cheap and quantity doesn't equate to why you should favor one caliber over another...You should shoot what you shoot well regardless of caliber. If you are going to stake your life on a gun, choose the one you shoot best...

BTW, the person living in the past is you....You can prattle on about how the 9mm was developed by white Aryan people over 100 years ago...but the niggra 9 is the choice of baggy pants, gang banger, darkies. Probably because it is cheap and you can hold the gun sideways when you shoot it. ..But the truth is....WHITE people use a .45 ACP. I'll just leave that there for you to chew on.

[Renee]

i love my 9mm Mel, but it's not as effective at taking people down as a .45.

It is when you need a pistol magazine that holds more than seven rounds!

When do you need that, Mel?

When you're rolling thru the hood, looking to shoot up a block party because someone disrespected your choice of basketball shoes???... Yeah that's when you need 15 rounds of niggra 9...

[Blue Frost]

i love my 9mm Mel, but it's not as effective at taking people down as a .45.

It is when you need a pistol magazine that holds more than seven rounds!

I thought I answered that
I know 9mm is fun, but I honestly would want something with more take down.
I use ball ammo most the time straight off the shelf, and the .45, and others have that take down covered most the time.

As for my 9mm, I have 32 rounds mags for them

[Mel Gibson]

The true effectiveness of 9mm vs .40 S&W vs .45ACP is so similar, that I believe the increased capacity of 9mm magazines gives it the edge.

If we really want a pistol cartridge that shows a true increase in effectiveness, then 10mm Auto would certainly be the way we should go. Unlike the aforementioned three rounds though, not everyone is comfortable with the recoil of 10mm Auto...

[Mel Gibson]

you can hold the gun sideways when you shoot it.

This just proves how versatile the 9mm round really is!

[Blue Frost]

The true effectiveness of 9mm vs .40 S&W vs .45ACP is so similar, that I believe the increased capacity of 9mm magazines gives it the edge.

If we really want a pistol cartridge that shows a true increase in effectiveness, then 10mm Auto would certainly be the way we should go. Unlike the aforementioned three rounds though, not everyone is comfortable with the recoil of 10mm Auto...

I'm looking for a good 10mm, I want the Tanfoglieo Hunter maybe, or better.
As for the ammo, it's hard to find the original FBI loads for it, what they sell most often now for the 10 is a weaker load.
Crybabies had to ruin it.

The 9mm, and 45 isn't close with knockdown, that's where the 9 fails.
The 40 also is weak, and lacks that punch of a .45.
I'm talking with basic ball ammo.

[Mel Gibson]

While I can understand the nostalgia of the .45 ACP in America, real world shootings data show that there isn't as much of a difference as people think, especially with modern ammo. It's simply that some people are tied to the "bigger is better" theory... A .357 Magnum round is considered the gold standard for stopping power, yet it's essentially the same diameter as a 9mm round. I can argue that a smaller bullet traveling faster will create more damage than a heavier bullet traveling slower into a human body. It's the same reason that a .30 caliber rifle bullet is effective for pretty much all North American game, and why the little .223 Remington is devastating to a human body.

So while I agree there are slight differences in performance between the 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP, I believe that most of these perceived differences is nothing more than American nostalgia for the 1911 pistol, and its .45ACP round. I admire that pistol, but the time has come and gone when a semi-auto pistol is limited to seven round magazines. In combat situations, most will agree that magazine capacity is of absolute importance, and 9mm offers that advantage.

I'll also add that if one can't hit what they're shooting at, it doesn't matter what caliber heater you're packing!

[Mel Gibson]

BTW, the person living in the past is you....You can prattle on about how the 9mm was developed by white Aryan people over 100 years ago...but the niggra 9 is the choice of baggy pants, gang banger, darkies. Probably because it is cheap and you can hold the gun sideways when you shoot it. ..But the truth is....WHITE people use a .45 ACP. I'll just leave that there for you to chew on.

When you're rolling thru the hood, looking to shoot up a block party because someone disrespected your choice of basketball shoes???... Yeah that's when you need 15 rounds of niggra 9...

I can't help it that your country decided it didn't want to pay for labour, so now you are stuck with the problem of that decision...

That has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the 9mm round though, my rotund forum poster...

[Blue Frost]

While I can understand the nostalgia of the .45 ACP in America, real world shootings data show that there isn't as much of a difference as people think, especially with modern ammo. It's simply that some people are tied to the "bigger is better" theory... A .357 Magnum round is considered the gold standard for stopping power, yet it's essentially the same diameter as a 9mm round. I can argue that a smaller bullet traveling faster will create more damage than a heavier bullet traveling slower into a human body. It's the same reason that a .30 caliber rifle bullet is effective for pretty much all North American game, and why the little .223 Remington is devastating to a human body.

So while I agree there are slight differences in performance between the 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP, I believe that most of these perceived differences is nothing more than American nostalgia for the 1911 pistol, and its .45ACP round. I admire that pistol, but the time has come and gone when a semi-auto pistol is limited to seven round magazines. In combat situations, most will agree that magazine capacity is of absolute importance, and 9mm offers that advantage.

I'll also add that if one can't hit what they're shooting at, it doesn't matter what caliber heater you're packing!

Looking at that data they have 9mm the worst, and .45 the best.
The numbers are all off for people shot, out of 456 people shot percentage wise the 9mm is actually 46%, and the 45 7.5%
Who ever did the math on that was trying hard to fool people, if not they would have used 100 people for each caliber.

[Mel Gibson]

Take those numbers as you will... They show there is very little 'stopping power' difference between a 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP...

[Renee]

What both of you are missing is that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS STOPPING POWER IN A HANDGUN!!!

The myth of the "one shot stop" is just that,...A MYTH. In any handgun self-defense situation you need to shoot until your target is neutralized and that is rarely accomplished with one shot. This is why we practice "double taps" for IDPA competition.

Also the MYTH of requiring 15 rounds in a handgun has no real world credibility beyond a battlefield scenario and even then a handgun is going to be the last choice of weapon just before a knife or a sharp stick.

Statistics show that most self defense shootings start and end with less that 4 rounds fired. The need for high cap mags generally only takes place in competition games such as IPSC which is far and away from real world shooting. The idea that you need more than 8 or 10 rounds in any given situation where the use of a handgun is necessary, is a concept fit for yahoos only and people who have no confidence in their shooting abilities. Blasting away, throwing mass quantities of lead downrange does not a competent pistolero make.

Also, most new semiautomatic handguns are limited to 10 round mags because more and more states are banning hi-cap mags. But for you spray and pray types that want a hi-cap .45 ACP or a .40 S&W, they're out there. Glock ...STI and FNX all make one.

[Renee]

BTW, the person living in the past is you....You can prattle on about how the 9mm was developed by white Aryan people over 100 years ago...but the niggra 9 is the choice of baggy pants, gang banger, darkies. Probably because it is cheap and you can hold the gun sideways when you shoot it. ..But the truth is....WHITE people use a .45 ACP. I'll just leave that there for you to chew on.

When you're rolling thru the hood, looking to shoot up a block party because someone disrespected your choice of basketball shoes???... Yeah that's when you need 15 rounds of niggra 9...

I can't help it that your country decided it didn't want to pay for labour, so now you are stuck with the problem of that decision...

That has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the 9mm round though, my rotund forum poster...

Your country had slaves too. Except for the most part, they were indigenous people and you are paying for it still today...We've been over this before my liver damaged friend.

No matter what you say the .45 ACP is still a more effective round simply by virtue of it's mass. Advancement in bullet design has helped the niggra 9 to become an effective cartridge but that is ONLY with controlled expansion hollowpoints. Any other bullet type or design causes the 9mm to lag behind in effectiveness when compared to the .45 ACP OR the. 40 S&W OR the. 357 mag. In truth without the ammo that has come out in the last 15 years or so, the niggra 9 is little more effective than the standard velocity .38 spl.

In fact many calibers have benefited from the advancement in hollow point design. The lowly .380 auto is now a viable self-defense cartridge and it comes in a much smaller and easier to carry package. That's another strike against the niggra 9...

[Blue Frost]

What both of you are missing is that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS STOPPING POWER IN A HANDGUN!!!

The myth of the "one shot stop" is just that,...A MYTH. In any handgun self-defense situation you need to shoot until your target is neutralized and that is rarely accomplished with one shot. This is why we practice "double taps" for IDPA competition.

Also the MYTH of requiring 15 rounds in a handgun has no real world credibility beyond a battlefield scenario and even then a handgun is going to be the last choice of weapon just before a knife or a sharp stick.

Statistics show that most self defense shootings start and end with less that 4 rounds fired. The need for high cap mags generally only takes place in competition games such as IPSC which is far and away from real world shooting. The idea that you need more than 8 or 10 rounds in any given situation where the use of a handgun is necessary, is a concept fit for yahoos only and people who have no confidence in their shooting abilities. Blasting away, throwing mass quantities of lead downrange does not a competent pistolero make.

Also, most new semiautomatic handguns are limited to 10 round mags because more and more states are banning hi-cap mags. But for you spray and pray types that want a hi-cap .45 ACP or a .40 S&W, they're out there. Glock ...STI and FNX all make one.

Stopping, knockdown, I think there is, and mostly it's the slower plodding rounds that take people down.
The rounds you keep.

Placement is the key, but nobody can shoot anymore so they need more rounds.

[Blue Frost]

"Around 1990, writer Charles Petty was given unprecedented access to the FBI’s wound ballistics studies that had led to the agency’s adoption of the 10mm cartridge. He wrote, “As the testing progressed, another factor became obvious. No 9mm loads came close to the 10mm and .45. ‘We expected that there would be a gap,’ said [the FBI’s Urey] Patrick, ‘but we didn’t expect it to be so large.’ In the first series of tests, the best a 9mm could do was 67.5 percent.

The .38 Special fared just as poorly, and the standard FBI-issue .38 Special [158-grain, lead, hollow-point +P] also achieved a 67.5 percent success rate. Among the initial rounds tested, only the 10mm, .45 ACP and a single .357 Mag round were able to score consistently above 90 percent.”


Interesting stuff, that quote is from here.
https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/20 ... ing-power/

[Mel Gibson]

Also the MYTH of requiring 15 rounds in a handgun has no real world credibility beyond a battlefield scenario and even then a handgun is going to be the last choice of weapon just before a knife or a sharp stick.

Statistics show that most self defense shootings start and end with less that 4 rounds fired. The need for high cap mags generally only takes place in competition games such as IPSC which is far and away from real world shooting. The idea that you need more than 8 or 10 rounds in any given situation where the use of a handgun is necessary, is a concept fit for yahoos only and people who have no confidence in their shooting abilities. Blasting away, throwing mass quantities of lead downrange does not a competent pistolero make.

Also, most new semiautomatic handguns are limited to 10 round mags because more and more states are banning hi-cap mags. But for you spray and pray types that want a hi-cap .45 ACP or a .40 S&W, they're out there. Glock ...STI and FNX all make one.

While I agree that most civilian defense-type shootings require few rounds, or even none as simply producing a firearm can often end trouble, I'm not limiting the discussion to that scenario...

I have studied law enforcement shootouts, and while I won't disagree that some officers need better training, I can state with certainty that in some scenarios you'll want high capacity mags. I'd personally feel more confident engaging with heavily armed bank robbers equipped with 17 rounds of 9mm, but if you're confident with your 7 round 1911 in that situation, then have at it!

[Mel Gibson]

"Around 1990, writer Charles Petty was given unprecedented access to the FBI’s wound ballistics studies that had led to the agency’s adoption of the 10mm cartridge. He wrote, “As the testing progressed, another factor became obvious. No 9mm loads came close to the 10mm and .45. ‘We expected that there would be a gap,’ said [the FBI’s Urey] Patrick, ‘but we didn’t expect it to be so large.’ In the first series of tests, the best a 9mm could do was 67.5 percent.

The .38 Special fared just as poorly, and the standard FBI-issue .38 Special [158-grain, lead, hollow-point +P] also achieved a 67.5 percent success rate. Among the initial rounds tested, only the 10mm, .45 ACP and a single .357 Mag round were able to score consistently above 90 percent.”


Interesting stuff, that quote is from here.
https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/20 ... ing-power/

In this same article, they also claim that modern 9mm ammo in +P and +P+ is the round of choice for some law enforcement agencies, as they have found much success with it.

I can believe this, since a lighter projectile flying faster just seems to cause more damage than a heavier one flying slower when it comes to the human body.

[Mel Gibson]

Your country had slaves too. Except for the most part, they were indigenous people and you are paying for it still today...We've been over this before my liver damaged friend.

We didn't have slaves here. Our workers came willingly to toil under harsh conditions for low pay...

And the Injuns? We never enslaved them... We tried to integrate them, but it didn't work, so now we try to keep 'em confined and placated on their Injun Reserves.

[Mel Gibson]

No matter what you say the .45 ACP is still a more effective round simply by virtue of it's mass.

So a 5.56 round is ineffective because of its lack of mass? You need a physics lesson, my rotund friend!

[Blue Frost]

"Around 1990, writer Charles Petty was given unprecedented access to the FBI’s wound ballistics studies that had led to the agency’s adoption of the 10mm cartridge. He wrote, “As the testing progressed, another factor became obvious. No 9mm loads came close to the 10mm and .45. ‘We expected that there would be a gap,’ said [the FBI’s Urey] Patrick, ‘but we didn’t expect it to be so large.’ In the first series of tests, the best a 9mm could do was 67.5 percent.

The .38 Special fared just as poorly, and the standard FBI-issue .38 Special [158-grain, lead, hollow-point +P] also achieved a 67.5 percent success rate. Among the initial rounds tested, only the 10mm, .45 ACP and a single .357 Mag round were able to score consistently above 90 percent.”


Interesting stuff, that quote is from here.
https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/20 ... ing-power/

In this same article, they also claim that modern 9mm ammo in +P and +P+ is the round of choice for some law enforcement agencies, as they have found much success with it.

I can believe this, since a lighter projectile flying faster just seems to cause more damage than a heavier one flying slower when it comes to the human body.

The plus P ammo, and self defense ammo with those speeds have more potential to open up when it hits unlike the older ammo is why.
The older ammo when you bought hollow points would not really open as advertised, and where a waste of money. At close range they are still almost useless opening up.

And mass does count in the smallest of calibers, they will as we say ice pick you to death.