How to abuse a child - the Christian Way

[me]

I'll tell you.....some of the best lessons in life that I've learned as an adult have often come from my desire to steer clear of pain.
You slam you thumb with a hammer a couple times or burn your knuckles on the iron a few times....I'm telling you there is a valuable lesson to be learned there. =)))))

[minaeni]

absolutely! you can only childproof your living conditions to a certain point. after which it becomes limiting of child's learning as they grow. example - to lock and unlock the cabinet with the garbage can a million times a day or to tech them to not touch the garbage? i say the latter.

Actually that is the point I am trying to make. Teaching is better than simply controlling the environment.

agreed.. but itsy..... you are imagining a classroom ready child when you say teaching, seems like.

by spanking them you ARE teaching your child to not dig through the garbage can cuz they didn't listen the first hundred times you used your words to teach them:)

[minaeni]

I'll tell you.....some of the best lessons in life that I've learned as an adult have often come from my desire to steer clear of pain.
You slam you thumb with a hammer a couple times or burn your knuckles on the iron a few times....I'm telling you there is a valuable lesson to be learned there. =)))))

yes!! excellent example:)))

[minaeni]

itsy, you need 5 minutes with my 1.5 year old to know what i mean:))))

[GranpaP]

I got quite a share of spanking by a bunny; wooden spoons, metal icing spatulas and almost any utensil one can find in the drawer.

And I thank mom she did condition me into a good person.

[minaeni]

i think she did that too:)).. and trust me, a woman knows) we recognize each other's work;)

[minaeni]

say duce's mom - poor woman.. that's all i'll say:)) - not to say that she didn't do the best she could with what she had. but she sure got a lemon:))

[Sharlee]

Well think about it ... it's also not OK to lock an adult into a room or take away one of his belongings against his will. We're allowed to do all sorts of things to children in the name of discipline. It's all a matter of scale.

It could be easily argued that a child who was exposed to time outs might turn into someone who illegally confined others. It's not likely to happen IMO.

Are you familiar with the institution of.... prison?

Exactly, Itsy ... the state as the authority figure can do it but the average Joe on the street can't. We wouldn't bat an eye if you were locked up by the government for breaking a law that the government imposed on you, but if Lochdubh imprisoned you for breaking some kind of law he'd arbitrarily imposed on you, we'd have a fit. (Although you might enjoy it for a while, knowing him!)

It's something we learn early ... authority figures by virtue of wearing that cloak of authority, are empowered to do things the rest of us can't do. It's a simple fact of life.

[minaeni]

*sigh* and that's not funny at all:).. but yeah, it's both nature and nurture and then some that you are dealing with.

[Sharlee]

Sharlee, I have a bit of a wicked sense of humour and people are always asking me how I get my kids to behave so well. I say things like "I beat them" and smile. We were at a restaurant one day and the waitress was going on about how we have such well behaved kids and asked me how we do it. I responded with my usual beating them joke. This older women sitting at the table next to us gasped. On her way out she said, "You should be ashamed of yourself! Spanking is bad enough nevermind beating them!"

So my son hears the word spanking (he was 4 at the time), stands up, starts smacking himself in the butt and singing this song he made up - "Go spanking, tra la la la!" My husband and I burst out laughing and the lady stomps out looking at us like we'd lost our minds. It was hilarious!

I love it!! It’s great to see a child with a better sense of humour than an adult!

[Sharlee]

And while I understand itsy's distaste in the concept that obedience is related to controlling behaviour......I for one have to say that that is exactly what I want until my child is able to recognize and respond to danger without me. If that's bad...so be it.

absolutely! you can only childproof your living conditions to a certain point. after which it becomes limiting of child's learning as they grow. example - to lock and unlock the cabinet with the garbage can a million times a day or to tech them to not touch the garbage? i say the latter.

[Sharlee]

I don't judge you for spanking your child, but I have two six year olds and I have yet to find a reason to spank them or find something that wasn't effectively curbed with another means of discipline.

I reserved spanking for the most egregious sins because for the most part, my kids responded well to other forms of discipline. I don't think you have to spank to be an effective parent, but when you run into a situation in which learning has to take place in a very short period of time, I found it to work with small children who are too young to understand reason.

I totally agree with whoever said that once kids are in school, spanking shouldn't be needed.

[GranpaP]

The formative years in child development (2 to 6-8) is when most of the imprinting takes place; personality and beliefs develop and parent/environment influences should be positive and resulting in pleasurable experiences for the child. All humans seek pleasure in their lives and will tend to avoid displeasures.

The infliction of pain at an early age to condition/form a desired behavior follows the 'seek-out pleasure/avoid pain' Freudian concept and is the most effective method of conditioning. It has been used on me effectively and was used on my child also effectively; she has no recollections of any spankings and remember one.

[Itsy Bitsy]

itsy, you need 5 minutes with my 1.5 year old to know what i mean:))))

I LIVED with my neice until she was 3. Is there something about your own child that is unusual?

[minaeni]

The formative years in child development (2 to 6-8) is when most of the imprinting takes place; personality and beliefs develop and parent/environment influences should be positive and resulting in pleasurable experiences for the child. All humans seek pleasure in their lives and will tend to avoid displeasures.

The infliction of pain at an early age to condition/form a desired behavior follows the 'seek-out pleasure/avoid pain' Freudian concept and is the most effective method of conditioning. It has been used on me effectively and was used on my child also effectively; she has no recollections of any spankings and remember one.

^this!

you have a daughter! i somehow always thought you didn't have children, dunno why:) oh i know why - cuz you mostly talked about your girlfriend and stuff:)

[minaeni]

itsy, you need 5 minutes with my 1.5 year old to know what i mean:))))

I LIVED with my neice until she was 3. Is there something about your own child that is unusual?

absolutely nothing:)) i guess then you do know what i'm talking about:)

[Itsy Bitsy]

Exactly, Itsy ... the state as the authority figure can do it but the average Joe on the street can't. We wouldn't bat an eye if you were locked up by the government for breaking a law that the government imposed on you, but if Lochdubh imprisoned you for breaking some kind of law he'd arbitrarily imposed on you, we'd have a fit. (Although you might enjoy it for a while, knowing him!)

It's something we learn early ... authority figures by virtue of wearing that cloak of authority, are empowered to do things the rest of us can't do. It's a simple fact of life.

No, I see a parent as an authority to a child... and so have no problem with a parent giving a child a time out. I also see the government as an authority to society as a whole, for those who no longer have their own authority figure inflicting punishments on them for their wrongdoings. In other words, an authority to adults. And so I have no problem with the government locking up people who have victimized other members of society. I would have just as much of a problem with police officers beating a thief as I would have a parents spanking their child for stealing.

[Itsy Bitsy]

I've noticed that the same argument keeps getting repeated, so I'm going to feel free to repeat the same response. Yes, spanking works very well in the short term. I doubt anyone would disagree with that. My issue is that it's not worth the cost of integrity. No kid is ever going to stop misbehaving. They are only going to learn have to avoid being punished for it, if that's what happens every time they do something wrong. A child... or adult, for that matter, is more likely to actually refrain from certain behaviours if they truly feel they are wrong. If you still want to essentially "control" your child, GUILT tends to do a hell of a lot better a job (especially when you're not watching). But along with control, it also instills a sense of morality.

[me]

Exactly, Itsy ... the state as the authority figure can do it but the average Joe on the street can't. We wouldn't bat an eye if you were locked up by the government for breaking a law that the government imposed on you, but if Lochdubh imprisoned you for breaking some kind of law he'd arbitrarily imposed on you, we'd have a fit. (Although you might enjoy it for a while, knowing him!)

It's something we learn early ... authority figures by virtue of wearing that cloak of authority, are empowered to do things the rest of us can't do. It's a simple fact of life.

No, I see a parent as an authority to a child... and so have no problem with a parent giving a child a time out. I also see the government as an authority to society as a whole, for those who no longer have their own authority figure inflicting punishments on them for their wrongdoings. In other words, an authority to adults. And so I have no problem with the government locking up people who have victimized other members of society. I would have just as much of a problem with police officers beating a thief as I would have a parents spanking their child for stealing.

So spanking for stealing is an inappropriate reaction. Best to have the child return whatever they stole and face the shame and humiliation. But....you are speaking of children who are old enough to learn.....old enough to know the difference between right and wrong....meaning discussion, negotiation, reasoning, other forms of natural consequences, are better options. Sharlee's explanation of a child who is about to dart in front of a truck when he is too young to understand the consequences of his actions needs to get their attention immediately. See....I'm not that crazy about spanking as a punishment....cuz I think that's a whole different set of rules.

[me]

I've noticed that the same argument keeps getting repeated, so I'm going to feel free to repeat the same response. Yes, spanking works very well in the short term. I doubt anyone would disagree with that. My issue is that it's not worth the cost of integrity. No kid is ever going to stop misbehaving. They are only going to learn have to avoid being punished for it, if that's what happens every time they do something wrong. A child... or adult, for that matter, is more likely to actually refrain from certain behaviours if they truly feel they are wrong. If you still want to essentially "control" your child, GUILT tends to do a hell of a lot better a job (especially when you're not watching). But along with control, it also instills a sense of morality.

Good luck trying to 'guilt' a two year old. =)))))

[minaeni]

I've noticed that the same argument keeps getting repeated, so I'm going to feel free to repeat the same response. Yes, spanking works very well in the short term. I doubt anyone would disagree with that. My issue is that it's not worth the cost of integrity. No kid is ever going to stop misbehaving. They are only going to learn have to avoid being punished for it, if that's what happens every time they do something wrong. A child... or adult, for that matter, is more likely to actually refrain from certain behaviours if they truly feel they are wrong. If you still want to essentially "control" your child, GUILT tends to do a hell of a lot better a job (especially when you're not watching). But along with control, it also instills a sense of morality.

itsy, you are comparing apples and oranges. i'm not talking about the integrity, i'm talking abut saving the child's life even (say when they let go of your hand as you are crossing the street). however, spanking of an older child is just outright wrong (that was mentioned earlier too). and if anybody did that to you (it kind of sounds as if you speak out of experience) they were very wrong to do it.

[minaeni]

damn you error 500 lol:(

[minaeni]

No, I see a parent as an authority to a child... and so have no problem with a parent giving a child a time out. I also see the government as an authority to society as a whole, for those who no longer have their own authority figure inflicting punishments on them for their wrongdoings. In other words, an authority to adults. And so I have no problem with the government locking up people who have victimized other members of society. I would have just as much of a problem with police officers beating a thief as I would have a parents spanking their child for stealing.

So spanking for stealing is an inappropriate reaction. Best to have the child return whatever they stole and face the shame and humiliation. But....you are speaking of children who are old enough to learn.....old enough to know the difference between right and wrong....meaning discussion, negotiation, reasoning, other forms of natural consequences, are better options. Sharlee's explanation of a child who is about to dart in front of a truck when he is too young to understand the consequences of his actions needs to get their attention immediately. See....I'm not that crazy about spanking as a punishment....cuz I think that's a whole different set of rules.

yes. this.

[me]

This though here makes me believe we are talking about two different things.

"No kid is ever going to stop misbehaving. They are only going to learn have to avoid being punished for it, if that's what happens every time they do something wrong. A child... or adult, for that matter, is more likely to actually refrain from certain behaviours if they truly feel they are wrong. If you still want to essentially "control" your child, GUILT tends to do a hell of a lot better a job (especially when you're not watching). But along with control, it also instills a sense of morality."

18 month old toddlers don't 'refrain from certain behaviours because they feel they truly feel they are wrong'. =))) Nor is guilt affective. Things like morality, they will learn by example when they are old enough to understand the concept....or at least by experiencing how they are reacted to by those around them.

[Zero Cool]

I am still failing to see why it's wrong to hit people unless they are your children. I would really like to know the rationale.

It's not. Sometimes people need to be hit.

[Zero Cool]

The meek SHALL inherit the earth!

If the rest of you don't mind.

oh they SHALL.. and don't you be making any jokes about it cuz i'mma not laughin':))

Worthy quote from a first sergeant in the US Marines;

"Those who can't kill will always be subjected to those who can."

I believe every word.

[Zero Cool]

both nature and nurture itsy. they both are at play in forming a person.

and i believe that the meek (a world full of good honest people) shall inherit the world, eventually, but we need many more levels of evolution till that time comes.

expecting that two people (one set of parents), imperfect themselves, create a perfect child by spanking or not is a bit much tho, don't you think:)) we can only do the best we can with what we have.

That nature vs nurture debate didn't even come up, so I don't know why you're mentioning it in your reply to me. Also, I don't know where you got the impression that I expected perfection. I merely pointed out one of the outcomes of punishment as a means to controll your child, instead of teaching them.

Perhaps because sometimes an out of control child cannot be taught? I was certainly one of those.

[Zero Cool]

I got quite a share of spanking by a bunny; wooden spoons, metal icing spatulas and almost any utensil one can find in the drawer.

And I thank mom she did condition me into a good person.

Another worthy quote from a US Marine;

"Mom used to beat me with a two-by-four when I was bad, that's because she cares about me."

[Zero Cool]

I've noticed that the same argument keeps getting repeated, so I'm going to feel free to repeat the same response. Yes, spanking works very well in the short term. I doubt anyone would disagree with that. My issue is that it's not worth the cost of integrity. No kid is ever going to stop misbehaving. They are only going to learn have to avoid being punished for it, if that's what happens every time they do something wrong. A child... or adult, for that matter, is more likely to actually refrain from certain behaviours if they truly feel they are wrong. If you still want to essentially "control" your child, GUILT tends to do a hell of a lot better a job (especially when you're not watching). But along with control, it also instills a sense of morality.

When I was a kid we had shoplifting, B&E & theft under 5 stealing booze from peoples homes, breaking into auto's for the ash-tray change to buy booze, mischief, fence bowling and other willful destruction of property.

When finally confronted with proper consequences after years of getting away with it, amongst myself & my peer-group stopped nearly overnight in it's entirety.

[me]

I think if you're pilfering spare change for booze...you are likely past the spanking stage.